Eye on the Triangle

Erie Mitchell 0:00
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Erie Mitchell 0:14
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Abdullah Najjar 00:00:32
All right, you're listening to WKNC. This is your host Abdullah Najjar. And in today's conversation, I am joined by Mr. Josh Paul. Mr. Paul is a former director of congressional congressional and Public Affairs for the Bureau of political military affairs at the State Department. The bureau oversees arms transfers to Israel and other nations around the world. Recently, Mr. Paul resigned in protest of President Biden's push to increase arms sales to Israel. In the letter in his resignation letter that went viral, Mr. Paul expressed deep concern for Israeli response and highlighted that it would lead to, quote, deeper suffering for both Palestinians and Israelis, and that it is not for long term American interests. Without further ado, Mr. Paul, I'd like to welcome you to studio.

Josh Paul 00:01:28
Thank you very much indeed, for having me. Please call me Josh.

Abdullah Najjar 00:01:31
All right. So, Josh, a lot has happened since you resigned, there has been, you know, sadly, an increase in Palestinian death toll. Now, I think we're approaching 30,000, if not more, and there's been a lot that's happening around the world protests. There's been calls for ceasefire, and many things happened since October 7th. My first question to you is, did you anticipate any of that, you know, the the media coverage of your, you know, resignation, your appearances in different venues, your, your, your talks that you've given? And obviously, the war dragging on for for many, many months now? Did you, by any chance, anticipate any of that.

Josh Paul 00:02:22
So I certainly didn't anticipate the media coverage that I've received. But I did sadly anticipate the course of the war. I think it's been entirely predictable, in terms of its cost in Palestinian lives, the damage it has done to US national security address in the region and around the world. And its lack of advancement, frankly, of Israeli security, either. I think in all of those respects, that has followed a course that was, you know, entirely predictable at the time that I left back in October.

Abdullah Najjar 00:02:53
And now that it's, you know, you resigned, I believe in October, if I'm not mistaken, this past October. And now we're in the, you know, we're in mid March, and we're seeing you know, the administration, Biden administration, somehow changing its tone. I recall, in in, in the past couple of weeks, where, you know, they're being presented with the numbers of the death toll Palestinian death toll, there has been some level of skepticism. But now, there seems to be somehow a shift in a way, it seems like, you know, I don't know if I'm seeing that. But I don't know if it's just me to seeing that. But it seems like there's some level of, I guess, a disconnect between the Biden administration. And that campaign, and the goals of the campaign. It's been carried out by Netanyahu. What do you think of that?

Josh Paul 00:03:51
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't overstate that gap, or any shift in the Biden administration's policy, I think you're right, there has been a change in tone. And that's not entirely unimportant. But of course, at the same time, you know, as the Washington Post reported last week, there have been over 100, foreign military sales moved to Israel since October 7, as the Wall Street Journal reported over 23,000, precision guided munitions. And of course, in Gaza, we're talking about an area that is, you know, about the size of Metropolitan Las Vegas, or the tri tri College Area in North Carolina. It's not a it's not a large amount of land for 23,000, precision guided munitions. You know, I think the Biden administration, if anything, has gone out of its way to avoid pressing Israel to really change the course of the conflict. And we see that in decisions to airdrop humanitarian assistance or to build an offshore bear. I think it should be striking, particularly to military families, that this administration is finding it easier to deploy the US military into harm's way than it is to push an ally to follow its own legal responsibilities under international law, to provide humanitarian assistance to the population of a country or a zone that it is occupying. So yes, there have been changes in tone from Biden administration, but there has not yet been a significant change in policy. The one area where there seems to be an emerging division is in terms of Israel's plans for an attack on Rafa. Rafa being a city in the south of Gaza where over a million people 1.4 million people are now huddled, many of them lacking shelter, as they have been forcibly relocated from their homes in the north of the Gaza strip, here, the grading administration, and President Biden have said that, you know, they do not believe, an Israeli assualt into Rafa is warranted at this time should go ahead. But again, these have been words. And you know, the talk is that if this happens, then there may be some consideration of restricting arms transfers, after Rafa happens, it will be too late will be almost at the end of the Israeli operation. So that time for action is now and that action is not happening.

Abdullah Najjar 00:06:02
And when you speak about, say, a potential restriction of arm sales, how, you know, given that you were in the inside for quite some time, you're aware of these operations and how they work? How would you say, if the restriction were to occur? How would it manifest itself?

Josh Paul 00:06:20
Yeah, so there are certainly many options available to the administration under US law, as a matter of policy, the administration can suspend any arms transfer at any time for any reason. So there really is nothing holding them back, at least in terms of the policy options from doing so. I think there are many options that are that are available, one would certainly be looking at the arms that are causing the most harm to civilians, such as 2000 pound bombs, being dropped in urban areas with you know, a 50 to 100 meter blast radius, and saying, No, we will not transfer these types of arms, you are simply going to have to be more discriminating in your strikes. You know, another thing that obviously hangs out there is the need to simply adhere to US law. So it is US law, that if a country is restricting the delivery of humanity, US funded humanitarian assistance, we may not provide them with foreign assistance for military assistance. It is clear because the administration has repeatedly said, including national security adviser Jake Sullivan, that the Government of Israel is restricting the flow of US funded humanitarian assistance. And yet we are not, you know, implying our own law applying our own law that provides a waiver, by the way, the president can say, Yes, this is happening and still waive the restriction. But he's not even said yes, this is happening in a legal sense, despite the obviousness. So I think, you know, there are there are options and weapons flow, there are options in applying our own law, and other options as well.

Abdullah Najjar 00:07:48
Yeah. One of one of the key concerns that you raised in your resignation letter, Paul, is the idea that there was no there was a lack of debate when it comes to these these transfers when we're when it when a transfer is happening. And we're talking about, say a nation that has an X nation that has a record of say, human rights violations, typically, there would be a discussion, right, there would be a conversation, there would be a debate of whether or not the transfer say should occur. And you mentioned that because there was this lack of debate when it came to to Israel. That was primarily one of the reasons why you decided to resign, I wouldn't be I'm interested to know, why is it that there has been, especially with this particular case there is that lack the atmosphere that sort of makes it impractical or say, in a way it makes it harder to voice your concern or to talk about this decision. But when it comes say to other nations, the the option of voicing your concern is available, and you can talk about the policy. So why is that? Why is there some you know, there's a discrepancy here?

Josh Paul 00:09:05
Yeah, I mean, I think there is a discrepancy, I will certainly my experience in government, and I've dealt with, you know, arms transfers to countries around the globe, many of whom are very, quote unquote, difficult partners, right with poor human rights records. One can think of the Philippines, Saudi Arabia, others. There was always, you know, space for discussion, both within the administration, and certainly a lot of public debate and debate with Congress. That has not been the case, particularly since October 7, when it comes to Israel. And and, you know, I do want to note that debate within government is vital to get to good policies. When you don't have a good policy debate internally, you don't have a good policy outcome. You know, this is one of the full flaws and faults that autocracies often fall into right is where the leader says this is the policy and no one raises any concerns or questions. And then it turns out to be a bad policy. That's not the way our system is supposed to work. And I think what was happening in the State Department at the time that I left, which was this unwillingness to question the policy, is a microcosm of what we've seen more broadly in America. In terms of, you know, on college campuses, certainly I have, you know, heard many stories of debate being shut down of students being doxxed. And also of students being incentivized to dox our doxs, other students by being promised, you know, good career traps. We see this as well in the private sector. I've heard from, you know, 1000s people in law firms in medical practices in engineering firms in the tech sector, who are being told that if you speak up on this issue, you will risk your livelihood. So I think we have a real problem here. And I think that at the end of the day, as much as we have a policy problem in the United States, we also have a political problem. And that is one that we have to fix and address if we're going to be able to come to a better place that is more in the American national interest, whatever the outcome of that debate is, let's at least have the space to have it. Because if we don't, I think we are trapped.

Abdullah Najjar 00:11:01
Yeah. Speaking of aid, I think we touched on that a little bit earlier. If if, you know, if say we would endorse the idea of of, of trying giving humanitarian aid to Gazans, how would you say would be the proper way because obviously, these air drops have led to many, you know, unforeseen consequences a lot of Palestinians died as a result of these unanticipated air drops, there were certain incidents but say, we want to give give aid to the Gazans, what would you suggest would be a proper method of doing so?

Josh Paul 00:11:46
Right. So there are there are three routes here, right? air, sea and land we are trying air drops. You know, it's weird because air drops are something that you typically use either in a natural disaster when the roads have been washed away and there's no means to get you know, food to isolated villages, or when there is an adversary blockading a city. You know, the Berlin Airlift is certainly you know, they're not airdrops, one example. Another example is in 1993, when the US conducted airdrops to, you know, and Sarajevo, which were then being blockaded by Radovan cordage and Rocco, Serbian war criminals who actually were convicted in The Hague, for war crimes, including relating to the siege of those cities, I've never come across an instance in which the US conducts air drops in order to get around an ally. And the same right with the pier that we are now, you know, apparently building, which is going to take one to two months to build. So this is not a short term solution. Of course, you know, the answer here, and which will to be fair allow significant flow of humanitarian assistance into Gaza. But there are roads, there are checkpoints, there are trucks lined up outside of them right now waiting to get in. You know, prior to October 7, about 500 trucks a day of humanitarian assistance, we're getting into Gaza, that has dropped to fewer than 100 a day on average. And of course, the need has only grown because Gaza's economy, including it's agriculture, have been so devastated. So the obvious answer here is to open those checkpoints. And I think we do risk falling into a trap, even in doing with the best of intentions, when it comes to, for example, the building of a pier, because Israel has said that it does not intend to reopen those round checkpoints once this conflict is over. And what that will do is it will cut off Gaza from its main economic partner trading partner, which is actually Israel and the West Bank. And so further isolate Gaza, make it dependent on foreign humanitarian assistance. And, you know, and further destroy or damage prospects for a two state solution? Because how can you have that if Gaza cannot communicate with and cannot trade with the West Bank? So, you know, there are a number of options here in the short term, but in the long term, and really in the immediate term, too. But Israel to let through the humanitarian assistance that is waiting at the checkpoints in Egypt and in Israel, is really the obvious solution.

Abdullah Najjar 00:14:12
Yeah. Do you anticipate any sort of change when it comes to the campaign, that's being carried out by Israel? Because it seems like it's it's leading to more suffering, as you've indicated, when you resign, and it's still leading to more suffering for both Palestinians and Israelis, we see the death toll Palestinians, reaching 30,000 and a lot of injured Palestinians as well. And it's just it's a serious humanitarian disaster. Is there, in your opinion, any potential change to the campaign in the foreseeable future?

Josh Paul 00:14:47
Well, I mean, so not without the US using the leverage that we've just been talking about whether in terms of large arms transfers, or it has diplomatic leverage, right, it can stop vetoing ceasefire resolutions at the UN it can stop, you know, creating obstacles to accountability in terms of international justice institutions. There are, you know, a number of as we said, leverage points of leverage the US can use but if it doesn't use those, then I would anticipate you know, the war will continue. I think Israel will conduct as it has repeatedly promised to do this operation it wants to conduct into Rafa which will certainly result in many 1000s of more civilian casualties, as well as the raising of much of Rafa to create a quote unquote, safe zone between refer between Gaza and Egypt that Israel can patrol much as it has created a mile wide strip across the center of Gaza by bulldozing homes, universities, hospitals. And yeah, so I think that's I think that's what we're currently looking at probably in the mid April timeframe. And then once that's done, we'll see where we are. But I think, you know, we will be in a situation where Gaza remains, you know, in many ways, unlivable. Much of it, right? The idea, the notion that we're going to be able to rebuild Gaza, which has been so decimated three quarters of homes, destroyed, electricity, facilities, destroying water facilities, destroyed, hospitals destroyed the idea that we're going to be able to rebuild this to the way Gaza was before the war, first of all, even in the best of circumstances would take a decade. And of course, we're not talking about the best of circumstances, we're talking about a context in which, as we know, from past experience, Israel is going to block, you know, construction materials from going in. And, you know, as our countries have said, why should anyone finance the rebuilding of reconstruction of Gaza without a guarantee, which Israel will never provide, that this operation will not be repeated again, in five years in 10 years, whatever it might be? So I think we are looking at a lasting humanitarian crisis for the people of Gaza, unfortunately.

Abdullah Najjar 00:16:49
So my final question to you, Paul, is it say someone in your, in the State Department perhaps in this same year that you're working in, would decide to resign? Or they think that there's that they feel like, there's a policy that they're dissatisfied with? Or they feel like they're, they think that something seems to be, quote, immoral, that's happening, and they want to voice their concern, and they feel like a resignation is the proper course of action? What would you say to that person? Given that you've, you've went through something similar? I don't know if you had a backup plan after resignation or not. But maybe there's something you would probably say, now that you have experienced? I don't know many chances of you know, you've made that you've appeared on different media outlets, you've you've talked about this issue, but maybe you didn't anticipate any of that. But now that you have experienced all of this, what would you say to someone that might go through a similar decision?

Josh Paul 00:18:03
Yeah, no, it's actually a conversation I've had many times over the last few months with people thinking about leaving. And you're right, I did actually have a backup plan. And my backup plan was, you know, I've worked on security sector reform projects in, in the West Bank, but also in Iraq. And my backup plan was, look, you know, I can always find some work overseas, where I can continue to work in an interesting environment on things like I care about. And I think that's important to have, you know, my first, the first thing I say to people who reach out to me and say, Hey, I'm thinking about leaving, is, you know, what they say, on the on the airplanes, as they're giving the safety demonstration, make sure your own mask is secured before you help those around you. And, you know, I think making sure that, you know, for example, in this country, you know, your health care comes with your job. So making sure you can cover yourself in terms of health care and health insurance, making sure if you have you know, kids in college or in high school, or whatever it is, you can, you know, afford to support them. You know, these are important considerations. And then once you've come work through all of that, you know, thinking, I think framing is very important, and making sure that when you're talking about why you are leaving, you're doing so in a way that, you know, builds understanding, rather than is just, you know, lashing out. And you know, reaching out to different being able to reach out to different communities and to engage with them, I think is a really important part of so communicating is a really important part of it.

Abdullah Najjar 00:19:25
Well, Josh, Paul, thank you so much for joining us joining us here at WKNC.

Josh Paul 00:19:30
Thank you very much indeed for having me. Really appreciate it.

Abdullah Najjar 00:19:32
Absolutely.

Shanteya Hudson 19:53
Debt in North Carolina and across the nation is rising, and experts are offering tips to help people to make a shift in their finances. The average person in North Carolina has just over 96-thousand dollars in debt across student loans, car loans, credit cards and other types of personal loans. Joe Mecca with North Carolina's Coastal Credit Union says if you haven't already, now is the best time to tackle financial tasks that can help tackle debt and strive for financial security.

Joe Mecca 20:21
Setting goals, doing some planning and creating or maintaining their budget. They're getting ready to maybe purchase a home, and need help with the home-buying process. Or, they’re trying to plan for retirement or saving for education. And then, a growing trend that we’re hearing more and more about is financial caregiving.

Shanteya Hudson 20:38
He says getting these tasks done and thinking about your financial obligations at the beginning of the year are key things to think about when building your financial plan. He says starting with the basics and increasing your knowledge along the way are things that can help. He also says that seeking out a professional who can help guide the process is also a good place to start. A recent study from WalletHub finds that North Carolina was among 18 states that saw an increase in personal debt last year.

To bring your financial situation under control, Mecca says it's important to spend less than you earn. He says that means having a clear understanding of your income and expenses, and always prioritizing living within your means. He says automation is one way to do this.

Joe Mecca 21:17
One thing I always recommend to people is automate as much as you can. When you get your payroll deposited into your account, immediately do a transfer into savings if you're trying to reach a goal, or make a transfer into a loan that you're trying to pay down, transfer into a retirement account.

Shanteya Hudson 21:33
He says another thing you can do is find ways to increase your knowledge about money overall. He says checking with your financial institution can be a good resource. For instance, he says Coastal Credit Union has a self-help hub that offers interactive modules, covering topics from basic financial planning and budgeting to advanced subjects such as home ownership, investing and retirement. For North Carolina News Service, I'm Shanteya Hudson. Finer Trust Indicators at PublicNewsService.org.

Erie Mitchell 22:10
This has been Eye on the Triangle. I'm Erie Mitchell, your guest host right now. Thank you so much for listening to this. You can listen to back episodes of Eye on the Triangle at wknc.org/podcasts under Eye on the Triangle or just any of the other podcasts we have on WKNC. Thank you so much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai